21 July 2007

HP7 Discussion

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Discussion Thread
by bright_virago
07/21/2007, 10:59 AM #

Done with my first reading.

Wow. Just wow . Thanks Jo, for an amazing adventure.

Got a few of the predictions right and a few others very wrong.

Please feel free to join me here for a discussion of the book (please post spoiler warnings!) when you're ready.

Spoilers
by biteoftheweek
07/21/2007, 4:20 PM #

Glad to have someone to talk to about it.

Wow, is right!

Felt like an Indiana Jones movie, the action moved so fast. I think they were in Mortal danger at least once in every other chapter.

I am dying to talk about Dumbledore and Snape, dyou think it is too soon?

Spoilers follow.
by bright_virago
07/21/2007, 5:18 PM #

I'm sure it is too soon, but ....

I was completely satisfied with the resolution of Snape's story arc. The trip through the Pensieve (aha, "that boy" was most definitely not James!) explained so much!

Dumbledore, shades of grey indeed! So glad he turned out to be more than a kindly wise old mentor who gives the young hero his help.

Re: Spoilers follow.
by dankois
07/21/2007, 6:18 PM #

Whew, that was some wild ride, huh? Aberforth's Patronus is a goat!

spoilers within
by theDiabolicalDrGnu
07/21/2007, 7:13 PM #

enjoyed it. quite a body count, though i suppose that was expected. and we learned not to fuck with mrs. weasley.

the ending seemed both a bit too tidy, but very apt. i enjoyed it though.

perse got the prediction of harry as a horcrux right, though she doesn't know it yet.

shame about hedwig. poor thing.

only complaint would be a gap in the usual fine job of continuity. if harry's cloak was the deathly hallow, mad-eye shouldn't have been able to see through it, as he did in GOF.

Welcome Dan!
by bright_virago
07/21/2007, 7:42 PM #

Bring Polly along too!

Well, after that whole "inappropriate charms on a goat" clue, what else could it be?

Loved Chapter 29 - the rousing of Hogwarts, McGonagall leading the charge of desks, the suits of armor, the portraits, Peeves - went back and read that chapter a couple of times.

On the ending, Molly, and continuity.
by bright_virago
07/21/2007, 7:52 PM #

theDiabolicalDrGnu:
enjoyed it. quite a body count, though i suppose that was expected. and we learned not to fuck with mrs. weasley.

the ending seemed both a bit too tidy, but very apt. i enjoyed it though.

only complaint would be a gap in the usual fine job of continuity. if harry's cloak was the deathly hallow, mad-eye shouldn't have been able to see through it, as he did in GOF.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. And they all lived happily ever after?

It was about time Mrs Weasley got to do something other than laundry. Nice contrast of Bellatrix - I would gladly give all of my sons to the Dark Lord with Molly - you're not killing any more of our children.

And with the continuity thing, I always remember the sage advice given by Lucy Lawless : Ah, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that, a wizard did it.

I take more issue with
by biteoftheweek
07/22/2007, 12:14 AM #

Harry suddenly using unforgiveable curses all over the place

Isn't it interesting that Snape turned out to be much more of a good guy than Dumbledore?

Dumbledore was the perfect politician. Never publicly tarnished for his greed.

Snape never publicly rewarded for his noble acts, yet he forges on.

Favorite Line
by biteoftheweek
07/22/2007, 12:43 AM #

"Mum! I can't give a professor love!"
Report abuse
Re: I take more issue with
by theDiabolicalDrGnu
07/22/2007, 10:59 AM #
Reply
eh, harry tried using the cruciatus curse in OOP. so that's not so surprising. hell, i think mcgonangall wound up using the imperius curse towards the end.

dumbledore and snape, well...dumbldore punished himself for the rest of his life for the mistakes of his youth. and snape redeemed himself in the eyes of harry (at the end), which was the most important place to do so. i think private punishment and reward can be far more important than public.

Re: On the ending, Molly, and continuity.
by theDiabolicalDrGnu
07/22/2007, 11:02 AM #

heh. i suppose that doesn't work as well when they are all wizards. [grin]

yes, a nice contrast. plus, she called her a bitch. [grin] i think she should have offed percy instead of fred though. poor guy.

(Spoilers) How about
by bright_virago
07/22/2007, 11:25 AM #

...a dark wizard, then? [grin back]

No, Percy gets a chance to show remorse...he gets to live. Like Narcissa.

There's a line in 4 or 5 where Ron says (about Draco) "Shame his mother likes him..." Well, Won-Won, turns out it's highly useful that his mother likes him.

Spoilers in here.
by bright_virago
07/22/2007, 11:33 AM #

Dumbledore and power. Going back to the Book Club article, I think the better LOTR comparison is Galadriel and Dumbledore. Especially regarding the objects of power. They both recognize what they would do with too much power and forsake it (eventually).

Snape isn't all that good, even thought he's not all evil. The Carrows torture children under his watch. I am glad, though, that he turned out not to be a murderer.

Incorrect Predictions (spoilers)
by ducki3x
07/22/2007, 12:01 PM #

Anyone care to share any of their incorrect predictions? I certainly had my share that I'd considered in the time since the release of Half-Blood Prince:

While I was right about Snape's allegiences, I had envisioned a radically different role for him in the final battle.
I was sure that Harry's gambit to protect Ginny would be undermined by Malfoy (or another Slytherin who had heard of their pairing through the Hogwarts grapevine) and that she would become bait to lure Harry into a final battle, a decision that would come back to bite Voldemort as Harry's love for her would prove key to the dark lord's defeat.
I waffled about Harry's status as a Horcrux in the weeks leading up to the release, and ultimately came out on the wrong side (I still would have been wrong, however, as I was previously convinced that this was evidence that Harry had to die)
I'm sure that there are many more wrong guesses I've made over the years, but these are the ones that leap to the front of my mind...

I thought about that--them torturing children
by biteoftheweek
07/22/2007, 12:04 PM #

In the beginning of the book when he watches his fellow proffessor get killed.

I think he helped all those he could help without giving himself up. I think it was Dumbledore who asked him about all the people he watched die. And he said something like: "Only those I couldn't stop."

No, Snape wasn't that good, but who is? Certainly not Dumbledore.

Mine (incorrect predictions) This thread is spoiler central
by biteoftheweek
07/22/2007, 12:29 PM #

The cloak passed down from Gryffindor because Harry is a descendent.

Harry's love for Ginny and/or his friends saving them/him/the world

I love that it was Snape's love for Lily that actually played here

I guessed all the wrong people dying.

Re: Incorrect Predictions (spoilers)
by bright_virago
07/22/2007, 12:30 PM #

You can peruse some of the ones we made over the last couple of weeks here.

I was wrong about Snape.
I was right about Harry being a Horcrux, but not necessarily why he was a Horcrux.
I thought Ginny might sacrifice herself for Harry, like Lily did.
Everyone thought Neville was going to take out Bellatrix. I don't think anyone saw Mrs Weasley in there.
I thought all of the Weasleys would die (hands on clock pointing to mortal peril.)
I didn't think Nagini was a Horcrux - I thought that was a red herring.
I thought Snape was an animagus.

Re: Incorrect Predictions (spoilers)
by ducki3x
07/22/2007, 1:35 PM #

Thanks for the link bright_virago - I've been incredibly wary about browsing the web over the last few weeks just in case I hit the one link that spoils everything (I was downright paranoid in the days up to 7/21), so I missed this.

Regarding the debate leading up to Deathly Hollows of Snape being evil or, well, not precicely good but at least aligned with good against evil, I've seen a number of posts (here and elsewhere) that came down to either gut feel (as with you) or detailed arguments about various plot points. One thing I haven't seen is a discussion on the angle I was taking, which is purely structural in nature - up to the scene in HBP where the unbreakable vow was made, I don't believe we'd ever had a chapter where actions weren't viewed at least by a neutral party, if not a character who was clearly on the side of good or, if from the perspective of an evil character, there was some magical reason for a good character (pensive, vision, etc) to be viewing the events, and it seemed very wrong to me that Rowling would break from this structure so late in the game.

Although it's purely academic now that we know the truth, do you know of any threads or discussions that took this perspective? I'm simply curious to see other arguments pro or con this position, and I don't often frequent online discussions...

Re: Incorrect Predictions (spoilers)
by bright_virago
07/22/2007, 2:12 PM #

ducki3x:
Regarding the debate leading up to Deathly Hollows of Snape being evil or, well, not precicely good but at least aligned with good against evil, I've seen a number of posts (here and elsewhere) that came down to either gut feel (as with you) or detailed arguments about various plot points. One thing I haven't seen is a discussion on the angle I was taking, which is purely structural in nature - up to the scene in HBP where the unbreakable vow was made, I don't believe we'd ever had a chapter where actions weren't viewed at least by a neutral party, if not a character who was clearly on the side of good or, if from the perspective of an evil character, there was some magical reason for a good character (pensive, vision, etc) to be viewing the events, and it seemed very wrong to me that Rowling would break from this structure so late in the game.

That is a brilliant observation! The only other scene that's even close to the Unbreakable Vow is the one in OotP with the muggle prime minister, and he's interacting with Fudge, who, though viciously inept, is working on the side of good.

Since you're new to The Fray (welcome! hope you stick around!) you probably missed our discussion thread in 2005 after the release of HBP. The Fray recently underwent renovations and the archives are offline for now. From memory, I don't recall Fray posters proposing that kind of narrative analysis in our HBP discussion (anyone who was in that thread, please feel free to correct me here!) I'm betting you could find something about it on Mugglenet - their forums are down until the 24th - but their editorials section might be worth a look.

Re: Incorrect Predictions (spoilers)
by theDiabolicalDrGnu
07/22/2007, 3:40 PM #

i was wrong about harry being a horcrux too, cause i thought they had to be made intentionally.

was also convinced dumbledore would have returned, physically. all that phoenix symbolism led me astray.

Re: Incorrect Predictions (spoilers)
by coolhound
07/22/2007, 5:00 PM #

theDiabolicalDrGnu:
i was wrong about harry being a horcrux too, cause i thought they had to be made intentionally.

was also convinced dumbledore would have returned, physically. all that phoenix symbolism led me astray.

i agree ... i think one of the more frustrating red herrings was the dumbledore/phoenix one ... this was a thread through the books that really didn't come into play at all in this one (which is unfortunate, considered that "clues" regarding just this were laid throughout many of the previous novels).

Re: Narrative changes (spoilers)
by woxlan
07/22/2007, 11:25 PM #

I had the same thought while reading HBP (I've only just read the entire series for the first time over the weeks leading up to HP7) but then I remembered that the first chapter of GOF ("The Riddle House") included a scene with a narrative not involving Harry in some form - i believe that this was a first for the series.

Just a quick note - the scene with the Prime Minister was also in HBP. In fact, we don't see Harry untilt he third chapter of that book.

Oh, is THIS where we're supposed to
by TenaciousK
07/22/2007, 11:56 PM #

be talking about Harry Potter? The following is a repost [in other words, if you read my reaction post on another forum, you can safely quit reading here].

The midnight bookstore thing has been a tradition in my family - at least, with me and my son. This time I pre-ordered from Amazon (guaranteed delivery day of release), being pretty busy and all, and offered to do the midnight bookstore thing with him. He made plans with some girl, though, which subsequently fell through, and he and his friend went instead. He started reading that night.

Mine never showed up from those Potter-withholding Amazonian bastards, so surreptitiously nicked his, while he was at work yesterday. I made it through 660 pages before he came home, and rather insistently snatched it out of my hands. I didn't get to finish it until this morning.

I've always been impressed by the shift between the Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy. Those books have always struck me as perfect for someone on the cusp between childhood and adulthood: the hobbit, to get you hooked, and the others to deepen your appreciation for the writing and thematic elements. It strikes me that Rowling has done something similar, so far as themes are concerned, albeit much more gradually. Really, they've been perfect for my son, now eighteen, who is more than ready to consider the complexity of characters like Dumbledore, who turns out to be more human than saintlike after all.

[Spoiler alert]

Things I was right about: Harry was a Horcrux, Snape was a good guy all along.

Things I was wrong about: Harry wasn't intended to be a horcrux, the young Harry Potter never died. I expected young Malfoy to do something more overtly noble.

Things I was sort of right about: Harry dying (he sort of does, there for a minute, doesn't he?)

Rowling's big goof: The sword appearing at the last moment to save the day. I mean, wtf? From the sorting hat? Isn't there some hopping-mad little goblin out there somewhere? Couldn't Harry have been expected to hear from him in the intervening 19 years?

OTOH, could provide some meat for a sequel, or perhaps a spin-off series. The reference to Harry's quiescent scar, lo these nineteen long years, is also intentionally provocative (though certainly no guarantee she intends to do anything about it).

Rowling's "toss-in" plot device: the deathly hallows? The three talismans? Can I really believe she planned for those in books past? Not really.

Satisfying confrontation I never anticipated: Mrs. Weasley and Bellatrix. It's consistent with her theme on family etc., however, and also dovetails nicely with the defanging of the Malfoys, whose worship of Voldemort is undermined by their love for their son [and all the other family stuff - his mom's protection, yadda yadda].

Overall, I thought she did a lovely job, and I think her effort to humanize the costs of violence was well-done. I sort of expected Mad-eye to show up in subsequent chapters. I certainly didn't expect him (or at least that part of him) to show up in quite the morbid way he did. I thought she struck a nice balance between the horror of losing people and respect for the sensibilities of her readership; by skipping the gory details, she avoids the sensationalism of the act and focuses instead on what it means.

I liked it. I'd give it a big thumbs-up, Bright.

Foreshadowing the next series.
by TenaciousK
07/23/2007, 12:01 AM #

[More reposting, this time from Nuponuq, which I can't link to from here, for reasons allegedly technical and obscure...]


1. Reference to that 19-years quiescent scar...

2. There's a stone out there somewhere that might, or might not, bring people back from the dead. Sort of.


3. That wand - if someone bests Potter, whether he's using it or not, it's their's, isn't it?

4. What about that goblin from Gringott's: don't you think he's feeling understandably cheated / double-crossed at this point?

5. That whole 3-brothers tale - wouldn't that be incorporated nicely into the "death-eaters" goals? Do we know that its really fictionalized?
I remember hearing stories about Robert Jordan being locked in a hotel room by his publisher, who was retrieving pages he shoved out at various intervals from underneath the door. [I quit reading that series. Though I understand it improved, it just got too tedious to bear.]

Every time I get to a strained, seemingly "filler" part of a story, I think about someone pushing pages out under the door.

I think one of the things Rowling has been trying to do, however, is de-romanticize both the villains and the heroes. The ministry was taken over by a minority, but no-one dared stand up to them. Dumbledore wasn't quite as saintly as he appeared. It's easy to see how Riddle became Voldemort. Even nearly headless Nick The Bloody Baron [thanks Bite] turns out to be a murder-suicide story.

I think its a bold move on her part, really - there's something inherently wrong with romanticizing heroes (sets an unattainable standard) and demonizing villains (too easy to pretend they're not your kin). In this book, Rowling has ordinary people doing despicable things for understandable reasons (Luna's father, for instance), and people going along with horrid things because they can't figure out how to resist.

And in the case of Harry and his two chief allies, I think Rowling wants to remind us that even the best of friends aren't immune to the ill effects of doubt and shame. Its enough to make me wonder whether or not Rowling considers herself sort of a social activist, inoculating a generation of young people against the black and white fictions of their parents. If so, I have a hard time disagreeing; it's important to be able to identify with people who do noble things, even if we understand that we are not noble people [another fundamental failing of organized religion, I think, but that's another story].

The next series? Oh, Harry (now head of Hogwarts) gets murdered, Malfoy gets the big bad wand, seeking the other talismans, perhaps as a means of "conquering death" such that Voldemort can be brought back (proving he was really the true servant he was attempting to be - overcoming his shame at not being a better servant, etc.). Makes sense - he has something to prove, some family honor to restore, etc. I think Malfoy'd recover the stone first, consult with the big bad guy, Harry's scar would be going nuts, big buildup, and Harry gets killed in the end of either book one or two. He pretty much has to, what with the wand thing, plus he's got the cloak (though he's given it to one of his kids, which becomes a big part of the story, I imagine).

His kid(s) is/are primary protagonists.

I just hope Rowling's bought herself enough latitude to avoid the whole "pushing pages out under the door" scenario. I'd hate to see her do what Zelazny did with the second Amber series (another famous hostage taken by a publisher).

Hey
by biteoftheweek
07/23/2007, 1:05 AM #

Does Stephen King still write good books?

I read Christine (scared me to death as a teen) and The Stand (in my top 20 favorite books), but nothing after that. Did I miss anything?

Why yes he does.
by TenaciousK
07/23/2007, 2:31 AM #

Bag of Bones and the The Green Mile are my favorites since the time you've been reading. It is a must read. Lisey's Story wasn't bad. Cell and and Buick 8 are misses. I'm quite ambivalent about his Dark Tower series - never quite decided if I liked it or not. Rose Madder is his favorite, but its been so long since I read it, I can't remember whether I liked it so much or not.

I still think his best was The Shining, though the Stand is a close second (Salem's Lot should get some kind of honorable mention). It (the novel, not "the stand") most resembles his earlier writing, of the ones you've not read. His short story collections are always good.

But I read them all.

Peter Straub wrote both my favorite (Ghost Story) and least favorite (Mr. X) novels in the genre, though.

I don't read so much anymore - no time (and damn little self-control. When I start reading one, I'm worthless for much else until I've finished it). King, Straub, John Irving and Rowling are pretty much it these days - I'll read them as soon as they release one (not necessarily that quickly with Irving). I used to be quite the glutton for books, but now I'm on a diet, so to speak, and nobody else has held my interest so much. If Dan Simmons writes another Hyperion novel, I'll probably pick it up. I wasn't so impressed with the last one, though.

If I started to read more, I'd pick up a bunch of Gene Wolfe and Guy Gavriel Kay, I think.

Someday, I'm sure.

Re: Narrative changes (spoilers)
by bright_virago
07/23/2007, 6:07 AM #

woxlan:
I had the same thought while reading HBP (I've only just read the entire series for the first time over the weeks leading up to HP7) but then I remembered that the first chapter of GOF ("The Riddle House") included a scene with a narrative not involving Harry in some form - i believe that this was a first for the series.

Just a quick note - the scene with the Prime Minister was also in HBP. In fact, we don't see Harry untilt he third chapter of that book.

Hi woxlan -

Harry sees much of that scene through a "dream" or a vision (he wakes up with his scar hurting, writes to Sirius about it, Sirius in turn notifies Dumbledore) so I thnk that jives with what ducki was saying - those scenes always get filtered through the lens of someone working for good. (Also - thanks for the correction on where the prime minister scene is. )

A great read
by differnetEllen
07/23/2007, 7:55 AM #

Okay, I'm exhausted. It's Monday morning and I've actually read and then reread the book (Saturday morning, I kind of skimmed through it until 4 AM). Once again, Jo makes a point of not talking down to kids and as a result picks up adults as her fan base.

Spoiler (kind of)
by differnetEllen
07/23/2007, 8:00 AM #

My daughter is ticked off because she can't figure out if Luna and Neville made a pair too. But she's in love with Neville.... Thinks he's much nicer than Harry. We are both devastated by Fred's death, since for the longest time, we both had a crush on the Weasley twins - who doesn't love a guy who can make you laugh.

Re: Spoiler (kind of)
by bright_virago
07/23/2007, 8:37 AM #

I loved the scene where Luna encouraged Harry to make his Patronus. Also really liked Neville's confidence heading into the battle, his description of his rebellion at Hogwarts. He's a worthy candidate for your daughter's affection. And, the shippers will have fodder for years to come.

Re: Spoiler (kind of)
by Caro
07/23/2007, 9:36 AM #

I am DEEPLY devastated by Fred's death. If you think about it, with all the other characters who had a natural pair (throughout the series), either both lived or both died. James and Lily, Harry and Ginny, Tonks and Lupin, Ron and Hermione. Love was united, either in life or in death. But with Fred and George, the most perfect pair in the series (albeit in a very different way than the aforementioned pairs), they were separated. I do think that Rowling started to push them apart in "Deathly Hallows" - for instance, only Fred appeared on Potterwatch. But I still think tearing them apart like that was truly horrible. And the epilogue did nothing for me - in part because I KNEW Harry and Ginny and Ron and Hermione would be married with children, whereas I still can't begin to imagine what George would do without Fred.

I've heard a little talk about whether all the deaths in the book were "necessary." To which I respond, it's a war! A huge war! None of the deaths are "necessary" - they're all tragic and painful (to greater or lesser degrees), and that's part of the point. And I think part of the reason Rowling might have chosen to kill Fred is that it makes such a great impact. But I still wish she hadn't done it.

I had also noted that the chapters at the beginning of HBP are the only ones not only where a neutral/good character isn't present, but where HARRY isn't present, either in reality, dreams, or thoughts/pensieve. (The first chapter of the first book is the only other exception I can think of, not including book 7, and I think it was just the first chapter there, too.) What I took this to mean, however, was that Harry would not be dying, as despite these chapters, I really could not see how the book could possibly end without Harry, unless it ended with a super-long deathbed scene, which I felt was unlikely. At least I was right on that count!

Spoiler (definately)
by differnetEllen
07/23/2007, 9:43 AM #

Fred's death was important to make sure that the Weasley's family suffered and so did the readers. We had already lost Hedwig and Dobby and those were painful, but loosing Fred made me really sense the loss. While everyone was celebrating at the end, ther sat Ginny and Mrs. Weasley. They couldn't celebrate and as a result, neither could we. I think it was a good way of ensuring that the real cost of war was felt by the young.

Re: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Discussion Thread
by labratcool
07/23/2007, 10:00 AM #

So I finished the book last night and im still trying to figure something out. JKR said in an interview (possibly in the MuggleNet/TLC interview?) that one of the characters would learn to do magic late in life, but that was quite rare. So everybody was guessing muggle and squip characters who might do magic. But that character never came!! maybe my rather sleepless friday and saturday nights have something to do with this, but i cannot recall anybody but already established wizards doing magic. so who was it????????

Re: Foreshadowing the next series.
by theDiabolicalDrGnu
07/23/2007, 10:34 AM #

harry isn't even a teacher (nelville is). how/why would he suddenly become headmaster? actually, i don't think we're ever told his job (does he become an auror? i'd think so). mostly, i think he's happy to be a father; to finally have the family he longed for.

Re: Spoilers in here.
by theDiabolicalDrGnu
07/23/2007, 10:40 AM #

dumbledore practically quotes plato in regards to power, and those who seek it.

that's a bit of philosophy i've always adhered to. being a leader sucks (well, being a good one does). those who seek out power shouldn't be let anywhere near it, because having it is thankless, if you intend to use it well and wisely.

Re: On the ending, Molly, and continuity.
by bsharporflat
07/23/2007, 10:50 AM #

Regarding Bellatrix and Molly Weasley's battle- "yes, a nice contrast. plus, she called her a bitch"

I see an echo from the movie Aliens and Sigourney Weaver vs. the Queen where Ripley is protecting the little girl.

Re: Foreshadowing the next series.
by bright_virago
07/23/2007, 10:50 AM #

theDiabolicalDrGnu:
harry isn't even a teacher (neville is). how/why would he suddenly become headmaster?

If anyone's going to be Head of Hogwarts, it ought to be Hermione, though it didn't sound like she pursued academia as a career either.

He's not a headmaster 19 years later.
by TenaciousK
07/23/2007, 11:00 AM #

Or a teacher.

But 30 years later, who knows? Families grow up, and who better to teach the defense against the dark arts class?

Spoiler! Thoughts on Snape
by Claina
07/23/2007, 12:03 PM #

This is what I posted on another forum but I'd be glad to hear more thoughts on this subject.

I was a bit disappointed in Book 7 and it's treatment of Snape. Here are my reasons:

1) I was thinking Snape will play a larger role in bringing down Voldemort - in my head I was picturing some dramatic moment where Snape turns against Voldermort and Voldemort finds out the truth. Instead the only things that Snape did was: send the doe to lead Harry to the sword, give Harry the memory and probably protect the students to some extent. His death, the way it happened, seemed rather useless in the grand scheme of things. Edit: Now I believe I understand the reason JKR did this - she wanted to make Snape's life and death even more tragic... he still died hated and misunderstood, not knowing what's going to happen. I think it was too much suffering for one man.

2) I was hoping for some struggle as Harry would go from despising Snape to realizing what Snape really was. As it was, Harry barely gave Snape some thought, aside from mentioning once in a while that he really really hates him. When he did discover the truth, it was completely overshadowed by his discovery of the fact that he's the 7th Horcrux and he must die to kill Lord Voldermort. You don't really see Harry's reactions to the things he sees in the Pensieve and that was very disappointing. After he's done viewing the memories the only thing on his mind is that he must die. He brings him up once more when he's taunting Lord Voldemort, but he barely has the patience to tell Ron and Hermione of what he has seen.

3) Snape just didn't have enough "screen time" in this book and you could almost forget the character exists, so at the end when we're bombarded with all this information about him (confirming what most of us thought) it doesn't have as much impact as I wish it did. For us (Snape lovers) that was the chapter we were waiting for, but for regular readers it would probably be like "Whoa? Snape's not evil after all. Oh well"

The one thing I did like about the book is that it presented Dumbledore as a much more interesting, three-dimensional character, and at the end Snape comes out a lot more sympathetic character than Dumbledore. I absolutely loved Snape's reaction to DD's instructions to tell Harry he must die. Snape really *was* a better man, just not as fortunate as DD.

Other random notes:

Last chapter was just terrible. I can't believe this is *the* chapter JKR wrote years ago. Edit: Someone described it as poorly written fanfic and I agree.
Ron & Hermoine were nauseating: Hermione cried all the time (even after saving their behinds on multiple occasions), Ron didn't do anything except act pissed off. Their love story did not work
On the other hand the story of Snape's love for Lily worked.
A lot of shock about DD's character: On the one hand Book 7 made him more interesting, on the other hand we just really didn't see it coming, I think it would have worked better if there was some foreshadowing in books 1-6.

Re: Spoiler! Thoughts on Snape
by tikanique
07/23/2007, 12:44 PM #

I was surprised that more wasn't written at the end - epilogue - about Harry and Teddy Lupin's relationship since they both are orphans. I was very disappointed in the handling of Snape. I love Snape and she did him a disservice by not developing him more. Ron was very irritating throughout. I wanted to reach in and slap him a few times. I think the Dumbledore brother (forgot his name) was hella cool!

Re: Spoiler! Thoughts on Snape
by Claina
07/23/2007, 1:21 PM #

tikanique:
I was surprised that more wasn't written at the end - epilogue - about Harry and Teddy Lupin's relationship since they both are orphans.

I agree. I thought that Harry would think about the child when he saw that Lupin and Tonks died, especially since he is the child's godfather AND the child became orphaned at an early age, just like him, but nope.

tikanique:

I was very disappointed in the handling of Snape. I love Snape and she did him a disservice by not developing him more.

I thought that the character was developed to my satisfaction but the way this development was presented to us was rushed (especially if you compare to the way Dumbledore's character's development is presented). Can you imagine Snape's life? He had a terrible childhood. He developed a friendship and a bond to a girl that he fell in love with only to watch her walk away with Mr. Popular. He turned to the dark side, and payed for it dearly with the death of the woman he loved. He spent years spying for Dumbledore, staying close to the man who killed the woman he loved. He spend years protecting Harry, not because he saw Harry as a tool for conquering Lord Voldermort, but because Harry was Lily's son. He was mistrusted by everyone except Dumbledore and he had to kill that one person that trusted him. And then at the end of all this he died without seeing Lord Voldemort defeated, without Harry or anyone else knowing the truth. That's just too much suffering for one man.

Re: Spoiler! Thoughts on Snape
by bright_virago
07/23/2007, 1:22 PM #

I was happy with Snape's storyline in DH, but then, I wasn't a big fan of his to start. I was very moved by the Pensieve scene - it wasn't a throwaway moment for me - more of an ahhhhhh...now I get it. Because I finally realized that Dumbledore trusted in Snape's love for Lily, not Snape as an independent agent. Take Lily out of the equation - do you really think Snape would have acted as he did?

And with Dumbledore - that "gleam of triumph" from the end of GOF finally makes sense.

Re: Spoiler! Thoughts on Snape
by Claina
07/23/2007, 2:49 PM #

bright_virago:
Take Lily out of the equation - do you really think Snape would have acted as he did?

No. I think that Snape had a very unhappy childhood and he didn't find acceptance at Hogwarts from the "popular" kids and he was drawn to the darker side. I think that his personality was shaped by both Lily's influence ("love") and the influence of his Slytherin peers who later became Death Eaters ("power"). I am really oversimplifying things but what I am trying to say is that just because Lily was a positive influence on Snape doesn't mean Snape was inherently evil, but that most other influences in his life were negative.

Re: Spoiler! Thoughts on Snape
by tikanique
07/23/2007, 3:10 PM #

If Snape were truly evil then he would have gotten rid of James before he and Lily said their I dos. The fact that love was important enough to watch her marry another rather than see her sad says tons about Snape's character. Voldemort understood nothing of love, only power. That's a basic character flaw that Snape didn't have. Even without Lily, he would have turned out okay - dark and spooky - but okay.

Re: spoilers within
by jrkathryn
07/23/2007, 4:11 PM #

Well what about Snape's death? Voldemort never killed Severus, Nagini did. Did I read the wording right on that? Because the Snake by Voldiepants own logic should be the one who can wield the pointy stick of hokey pokey poking or thingamajig of doom. Cause if he just needed to die, not do it himself, Albus was dead already. Or do you just say well a part of his soul was in the snake, and that was good enough. By using this logic Voldiesnort should be covered by AKing himself by Lilly-Sue's sacrific. At least let the poor guy, Snape, kick Voldiemort in the shins but just stand there and take it?

As for Hedwig, it was the same as removing the broom, he needed to be unable to travel easy and not to have any contact from the wizarding world to support him.

Mrs. Weasley has always been terrifying.

I found the book badly needing an editor that was willing to say work this out better, too many holes this is good but do you really mean to say that? I would have waited for at least two more year to have had a tighter, less hurried, cobbled with duct tape feel. If she was really that tired of writing in this world, and she wanted to take more time with her family, she has all the money in England, couldn't she have just hired a ghostwriter?

As for better writing and humor just look to the short story of Snape and the Flobberworm by Slyvania (spelling?). A much better ending that is proabably less than three pages. I can't remember the last time I laughed so hard.

The one true failing was JKR missing the chance for when Trewelawny dropped the crystal ball on Greyback and not saying "He never foresaw that!"

Re: spoilers within
by bright_virago
07/23/2007, 4:15 PM #

jrkathryn:
The one true failing was JKR missing the chance for when Trewelawny dropped the crystal ball on Greyback and not saying "He never foresaw that!"

Thank you for that - you gave me a hearty laugh to end my day!

Re: Spoiler! Thoughts on Snape
by jrkathryn
07/23/2007, 4:16 PM #

Remember when sorted Malfoy puts his hand on Snape's shoulder encouraging him and showing the acceptance that he had never gotten before.

Re: spoilers within
by jrkathryn
07/23/2007, 4:27 PM #

I am so happy I could make one person laugh, most people round here grab their pitchforks when they see me. But if you thought that was funny check out Snape and the Flobberworm (fanfic) by Slyvaina (spelling?) It was short and wrapped the plot up great and is soooo funny it should carry the warning that you should not drink or eat anything while reading all three pages of it. I swear that I have had nothing to do with writing it at all. I found it much more satifying than HPDH. It is not easy by any stretch that to mix humor and deeper morality issues such as the fight between good and evil.

Re: Incorrect Predictions (spoilers)
by jrkathryn
07/23/2007, 5:09 PM #

Thats OK. I thought to remove the horcrux you ended up destroying the object it was in. Diary (stabbed with fang), ring (cracked in half), cup (Hermione's breath?), snake (head removal), tiara (burnt up), locket (stabbed) but the bit in Harry didn't become "destroyed". He did not even get a headache or a sharp poke in the eye, nothing.

Thats OK I don't understand the way She offed Snape.....the snake did it (in the shreiking shack, with his fangs) not Snakeface. So please will someone explain to me this bit in small words. He says you must kill you so that my wand works, not you just must be dead...but the snake does it.

My incorrect prediction was that this series might have some kind of morals or meanings, such the need to fight injustice etc......

Re: Incorrect Predictions (spoilers)
by bright_virago
07/23/2007, 7:06 PM #

jrkathryn:
Thats OK I don't understand the way She offed Snape.....the snake did it (in the shreiking shack, with his fangs) not Snakeface. So please will someone explain to me this bit in small words. He says you must kill you so that my wand works, not you just must be dead...but the snake does it.

Well, I think LV needs to be master of the wand by taking it from Snape, not necessarily killing him with it. (Draco took it from Dumbledore, and became master of it, even though he didn't kill him with it, but LV doesn't know that. Then Harry takes it from Draco, becoming its new master.) LV kills Snape, even though he doesn't have to, because he wouldn't risk the person who (he thought) owned the wand coming back for it.

Plus LV's an evil bastard.

Re: He's not a headmaster 19 years later.
by theDiabolicalDrGnu
07/24/2007, 8:22 AM #

TenaciousK:
Or a teacher.

But 30 years later, who knows? Families grow up, and who better to teach the defense against the dark arts class?

how many kids are you expecting from him then? sheesh, he's already got three. are his grandkids going to be the heros?

Re: He's not a headmaster 19 years later.
by bright_virago
07/24/2007, 8:30 AM #

We never really hear about the families of the Hogwarts teachers, do we? Was McGonagall married? Did Professor Sinistra have kids?

Re: Foreshadowing the next series.
by theDiabolicalDrGnu
07/24/2007, 8:41 AM #

i'd think mcgonangall was in charge, if she's not yet retired.

Re: Foreshadowing the next series.
by bright_virago
07/24/2007, 9:26 AM #

theDiabolicalDrGnu:
i'd think mcgonangall was in charge, if she's not yet retired.

I agree - I was thinking farther into the future. Although, clearly (see Auntie Muriel, et al) these wizards are long-lived when they're not tragically AKed at an early age.

And where the hell is Thrasymachus? He owes us for that "Blackie" prediction from 2005...

I bought the sword
by rundeep
07/24/2007, 9:35 AM #

coming out of the sorting hat. Did the same thing in book 2 for Harry -- as I recall, it's the bravery and loyalty to Dumbledore it responds to. Neville I think has had the best, most believable character arc of anyone in the whole series. Starts mousy and scared by a formidable grandmother and a dark past. In each book he slowly gains confidence and ability and he becomes a truly fearless, intelligent leader by the end. Marvelously done!

On the other hand, the plot thing I'm buying least is the sudden return of Percy Weasley to the fold. Where the heck did that come from? It's not that it's unbelievable, it's that there was absolutely no exposition for it. Struck me as odd and rather convenient to just have him burst on the scene.

One other thing I didn't like -- the epilogue. I really think it might have been stronger without it. (Don't know about you guys, but I'm still not buying Ron and Hermione as a couple, despite many books worth of emotion-building. Oddly, I think of myself as Hermione's mother, and think this one just isn't going to work long-term.)

On the whole though, I loved it. Truly action packed and designed to make adults and children sleepy as they stay up to find out Harry's fate.

Re: Incorrect Predictions (spoilers)
by rundeep
07/24/2007, 9:43 AM #

Well, I was correct that Snape would turn out better than we thought (and indeed, that DD encouraged him to finish DD off rather than allow Draco Malfoy to be ruined forever by that).

I did not think Harry was a Horcrux, because LV kept trying to kill him. Of course, we know that was now wrong.

I also thought Harry's fate might be ambiguous, and for a few moments there it was. Still not sure about the whole sacrificial lamb getting to come back and kill the bad guy business (thank you C.S. Lewis!) but it's satisfying nonetheless.

Re: I bought the sword
by bright_virago
07/24/2007, 10:35 AM #

rundeep:
On the other hand, the plot thing I'm buying least is the sudden return of Percy Weasley to the fold. Where the heck did that come from? It's not that it's unbelievable, it's that there was absolutely no exposition for it. Struck me as odd and rather convenient to just have him burst on the scene.

I thought Percy's return made a lot of sense - it's the whole remorse/second chance thing. (Plus, it momentarily made me think I was right about all of the Weasleys getting killed!)

Agree with you on Neville and yes, overall, I loved this book too.

Well, Gandalf
by rundeep
07/24/2007, 10:47 AM #

also knew he couldn't accept the power the ring brought, because of how he would react to it. What's interesting about Dumbledore is that he's fundamentally weaker than either Galadriel or Gandalf. He had mostly abandoned his ambitions for the Hallows, but not entirely -- he did, after all those years and all that wisdom -- put on the Gaunt's ring. It was the curse of his own flirtation with power that did him in. The most powerful wizard of his day, done in by latent amibition. Guess that description fits them all, except for Harry.

The naysayers who've argued (as did Voldemort) that Harry never really did anything on his own were right, and that's what saved him. He never really wanted power or glory, just peace and acceptance.

As for the torture under Snape's rule, true. But Umbridge tortured Harry and a few others under Dumbledore's nose also. We could argue that the point was to keep them alive, and I don't recall reference to any children dying at Hogwart's thanks to the Carrows.

Snape is the truly tragic figure here. Unattractive, misunderstood by everyone, a double agent whose only real allegiance is to unrequited love. He lives and dies for Lily and her son by his most hated rival. Learning that the person you may hate most in the world is essentially good may be the single most important lesson for the kids who read Harry Potter. And it's not a bad lesson for the rest of us either.

Re: Spoiler! Thoughts on Snape
by kolmogorov
07/26/2007, 6:00 PM #

Re: Dumbledore foreshadowing. My wife noticed in book 6 that Dumbledore expressed a lot of regret for something in his past while he was under the effects of that liquid hiding the locket. I missed it, because at first it sounds like he is regretting drinking the liquid, but if you read carefully it's clear that he's expressing regret for something else. It was there, most of us just missed it.

Re: Snape. I sort of hoped that Snape would be the one to kill Voldemort. My hope was that Harry Potter's main function would turn out to be merely to provide Voldemort with an obsession that distracts him from the danger close at hand. Obsessed with Harry Potter, I thought, he might forget to watch Snape closely enough and leave an opening for Snape to do him in. That is, when DD said that the prophecy is significant only insofar as Voldemort and Harry make it so, I was sort of hoping that would turn out to be true in the most stark sense... that the only sense in which Harry was a threat was because Voldemort *believed* he was a threat.

The fact that it turned out differently doesn't dissapoint me, though. Snape's character was all the more brave and poingnient to me given the obscurity in which he was forced to toil, and given the futile and pointless way in which he died. The shocking suddeness of his death, like real death, leaves one cold and stunned, and more than anything else that happened in the book made me feel in my gut the kind of evil that Voldemort represented.
at 10:59 AM
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